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2023.03.25 04:54 WreckageHothHead Flaws/insufficiencies in RLM's spacewar commentary: thread 2
Plinkett audio commentary: SW Ep1
And he has one last chance, and he puts that part in the pod - and finally, the pod starts working, and he can enter the big race - you know, to win the big prize at the end which will save.. the whole.. family.
And then he says "it's woorrrkiiing.." and you know, then you swell the dramatic music... - and that's when that scene works?
That scene doesn't work.. 20 minutes into a movie that's not about podracing.
I'm sorry to get all bitchy on you, but-.. but-... d'you ever watch this movie and, and be like... why did that happen, or, or-.. "I don't feel anything inside".... you know, I'm- like "I'm dead inside"?
Well.. - I'm.. just trying to explain why you feel dead inside when you watch this movie, or you don't feel excited - even at the end when they have the, big.. celebration? You know, [impression]- [...]
But even at the end when they have the big, like, festival - like-... you're just like.. "So?" So what, there's a midget there now with an eyepatch on, and-... some boring-ass bitch.. gives a frog a glowing ball. Wwhy the fuck do I care?
It's not like the end of the original Star Wars when Luke, Han, and.. Chewbacca, get medals from Princess Leia - it's like, those guys saved the fucking day; what did these guys do? Oh, they resolved a tax dispute...
Plinkett: Ep1So - what's going on here?
Number 10: Anakin Skywalker
[...]
Oh we're still on this planet are we?
So Qui-Gon manages to pull off the most convoluted bet ever, and somehow wins everything except for Anakin's mother.
Even at the end of the movie when they save the day and probably could get the cash to buy the mom from Watto - they don't go back for ten years.
Plinkett audio commentary: Ep1So instead of joining the dramatic high-stakes cause of freeing the slaves, Anakin instead joins the undramatic low-stakes cause of settling a tax dispute,
Oh.. - that's a good question, are you here to free the slaves Qui-Gon? No, actually we're.. we're in the process of settling a tax dispute... ohhh.
Yeah I guess freeing slaves would've made a better movie...
it's good we went with something boring, we wouldn't want to excite the audience too much...
But the real thrust of this scene is, this is when the stakes are really raised - insteada just a giant floating ball in space, we are now shown that the Death Star is capable of blowing up whole planets; and our ragtag group o' heroes are the only ones that can stop it...Now it's an "invasion" instead of a "tax dispute", however a "non-violent" one - hence still low-stakes.
Tension, stakes, a ticking clock!; heroism, and adventure - it's what makes Star Wars great.
Much like the Phantom Menace - when the Gungans fight the Robots to help Queen Amidala find the Viceroy, so that she doesn't have to sign a treaty to make the non-violent invasion legal in the courts...
[crickets...] Uhmm.. [..........]
Number 6: Invasion! Of Boring…Now there's talk of "people dying" all of a sudden - how "non-violent" was this
Plinkett: Ep1
Number 10: On to Planet Number 3. Is it time for death yet?
Welcome to Coruscant - home of the mid-air collision; and BORING SCENES.
So the Queen waits around for some kind of approval, o-.. for something, to stop her people from dying- Why are they dying? I guess they're dying though...
But I didn't see anyone die?
In fact I haven't even seen any Naboo citizen at all - as far as I know it's a city with 20 or so pilots, a couple of bureaucrats and officials.
Why are they dying? I guess they're dying though... But I didn't see anyone die?"I guess x is happening" = treating it as an uncertainty (although arguably also some indifference);
Plinkett: ST Generations*);
"He was trying to save a pre-industrial civilization that we never see... - or care anything about.
So the Queen waits around for some kind of approval, o-.. for something,, Plinkett isn't making any moves to go through the movie and analyze the information - instead he's just comically trying to piece together his foggy memories of the plot, while channeling confusion and indifference.
"How will you explain this invasion to the Senate?"Makes what can be called a "credible threat" about doing something to the people.
"The Queen and I will sign a treaty that will legitimize our occupation here - I have assurances it will be ratified by the Senate."
"I will not cooperate."
"Now, now, Your Highness - in time, the suffering of your people will persuade you to see our point of view.
Commander." "Yes, sir." "Process them." "Captain - take them to Camp 4."
"Your Highness, under the circumstances, I suggest you come to Coruscant with us."Here the psychic Jedi senses some lethal intentions on their part, probably making the earlier threats even more credible;
"Thank you, Ambassador - but my place is with my people."
"They will kill you if you stay."
Sio Bibble: "They wouldn't dare!"
Panaka: "They need her to sign a treaty to make this invasion of theirs legal, they can't afford to kill her!"
"There is something else behind all this, your Highness - there's no logic in the Federation's move here. My feelings tell me they will destroy you."
"Your negotiations seem to have failed, Ambassador."Either way, now there's a credible threat of "suffering" against the population, and a credible danger of them killing the Queen.
"The negotiations never took place. It's urgent that we make contact with the Republic."
Number 8: I'm gonna slit my wristsWhat is the treaty supposed to do again?
[Sigh...] It's hard to stomach any more of this shit - I still don't know who the main character is and why we should care about any of this.
At around this point in the original Star Wars movie, we've been with Luke almost the whole time getting to know him.
We see his plight;
his hopes and dreams...
we feel his frustration...
and then his sadness...
The slow build-up added depth, and emotion; and anticipation for the story to expand.
In the Phantom Menace we have nothing - we've a monotone queen, who's hiding from signing a treaty that's supposed to do something.
Why in fuck's name should we care at all.. I don't care about any of these characters?
Number 6: Invasion! Of Boring…The guys that want this treaty signed (whatever it's about) threaten her with making the people "suffer" - and the content of this treaty is that this faction that threatens the population with suffering while invading, arresting and keeping them as hostages, will get to "legally" stay there with no one doing anything about it.
So what exactly is the purpose of this invasion?
It's almost like after Lucas wrote the invasion scenes, he didn't.. really know what to do next? - so he thought he'd make the Queen have to sign a treaty, to make the invasion legal; I mean, why not?
In the Phantom Menace we have nothing - we've a monotone queen, who's hiding from signing a treaty that's supposed to do something.One might wonder how he managed to miss or forget this; a look at the part where he covers the threat scene, reveals a few things:
Invasion! Of Boring...So there are 2 alternative options that Plinkett is suggesting the green guys should've gone with, instead of "sending them to Camp 4":
Inside the city, Queen Aminalan has been captured by the green guys; but instead of forcing her to sign the treaty right then and there - or keeping her locked up inside the big capital building under heavy guard - they inexplicably send her away from them. ["I will not cooperate." "Now, now, Your Highness - in time, the suffering of your people will persuade you to see our point of view."]
"Commander." "Yes, sir?" "Process them..."
Remember - this is the most important person in their whole plan - and they send her to be... "processed"?, in some place called "Camp 4".
Droid: "Captain - take them to Camp 4."
Ohh; but at least they remember to send her with a whopping 8 battle droids to protect her from the 2 Jedis that they just discussed they had not found yet.
"You didn't tell him about the missing Jedi..." "No need to report that to him, until we have something to report."
But don't worry - these battle droids have proven very effective against Jedi Knights.
they inexplicably send her away from them. ["I will not cooperate." "Now, now, Your Highness - in time, the suffering of your people will persuade you to see our point of view."]So now as a result, Plinkett is talking over the part where Nute is issuing his threat to the Queen, saying how they should force the Queen to sign the treaty "right then and there"...
"Commander." "Yes, sir?" "Process them..."
Number 8: I'm gonna slit my wristsIn the Phantom Menace we have nothing - we've a monotone queen, who's hiding from signing a treaty that's supposed to do something.
Why in fuck's name should we care at all..
"The death toll is catastrophic... We must bow to their wishes! You must contact me!"So now it sounds like they're making it real - "catastrophic death tolls".
"It's a trick. Send no reply - send no transmissions of any kind."
"It sounds like bait to establish a connection trace."
"What if it is true - and the people are dying?"
"Either way, we're running out of time."
"Tatooine is sparsely populated - if the trace was correct, I will find them quickly, Master."However the possibility that the assertion about the "death tolls" might still be true, is left up in the air - the Jedi / Queen don't know, and the audience isn't clued in either.
"Your Queen is lost, your people are starving... and you, Governor, are going to die much sooner than your people I'm afraid..."However upon a closer look, 2 factors still cause a certain amount of doubt, or uncertainty:
"This invasion will gain you nothing! We're a democracy - the people have decided!"
"Take him away."
"The death toll is catastrophic! We must bow to their wishes! You must contact me!"It seems like the moment it's "confimed" to the audience via a villain cut-away, the protagonists now automatically start treating it as true as well.
"You all right?"
"It's very cold."
"You come from a warm planet, Ani - a little too warm for my taste. Space is cold."
"You seem sad..."
"The Queen is worried - her people are suffering, dying...
She must convince the Senate to intervene, or... I'm not sure what'll happen."
Plinkett audio commentary: Ep1This continues into this later scene:
the audience knows - but he doesn't know.
"The Courts take even longer to decide things than the Senate! Our people are dying, Senator - we must do something quickly to stop the Federation!"Later in the Senate session, even before anyone mentions anything about death tolls, the very notion of the invasion is already placed under doubt:
"To be realistic, Your Majesty... I think we're going to have to accept Federation control for the time being."
"That is something I cannot do."
"Honourable representatives of the Republic - I come to you under the gravest of circumstances. The Naboo system has been invaded by the droid armies of the Trade-"Initially by bad actors, of course - and Valorum seems to be under pressure to act like he's sharing or at least respecting these doubts:
"I object! There is no proof! This is incredible... We recommend a commission be sent to Naboo to ascertain the truth!"
"The Congress of Malastare concurs with the honourable delegate from the Trade Federation - a commission must be appointed!"
"The point..."
Mas Amedda: "Excuse me, Chancellor."
"Enter the bureaucrats - the true rulers of the Republic; and on the payroll of the Trade Federation, I might add. This is where Chancellor Valorum's strength will disappear."
"The point is conceded. Will you defer your motion to allow a commission to explore the validity of your accusations?"
Number 3: Death and Space TaxesHowever the Malastare speaker may or may not be genuine, and generally the Senate is not presented with any additional proof for these allegations;
At the end of the movie, Amidalen goes back to the planet to solve the problem herself - cause the Senate wanted to send an independent team to investigate whether or not the invasion was real.
"Will you defer your motion to allow a commission to explore the validity of your accusations?"
I guess the testimony of two Jedi Knights wasn't good enough; [Qui-Gon talking to Valorum on the Coruscant platform] those were the guys that Valorum trusted enough to settle the whole dispute in the first place? That don't make sense?..
"the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights, the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the conflict...."Given how backed into the corner the Valorum is,
"Chancellor Valorum seems to think there is hope?" "If I may say so, Your Majesty, the Chancellor has little real power - he is mired by baseless accusations of corruption; the bureaucrats are in charge now."probably not.
"I will not defer - I've come before you to resolve this attack on our sovereignty NOW. I was not elected to watch my people suffer and die, while you discuss this invasion in a committee!"Proof or reason aside, the room is instantly won over and apparently has no doubts left.
"Yousa tinking yousa people ganna die?"In this scene it's not clear whether Jar Jar is just getting things wrong and she's merely humoring him, or whether this talk about "gonna die" (as opposed to already dying in the present - does this mean he's asking if they're all gonna eventually die?) and her uncertain response ("don't know whether they'll all die before they can intervene"?) are rather, again, from yet another alternate continuity / script version,
"I don't know..."
"Gungans get pasted too, eh?"
"I hope not."
"I fear by the time you have control of the bureaucrats, Senator - there'll be nothing left of our people, our way of life."Apparently Palpatine agrees with Plinkett that they could potentially apply some more direct and successful form of "force" here - since otherwise the pressure they're applying now (causing those "death tolls") isn't going to fundamentally change if she returns.
"I understand your concern, Your Majesty - unfortunately, the Federation has possession of our planet."
"Senator - this is your arena; I feel I must return to mine.
I've decided to go back to Naboo."
"Go back? But your Majesty, be realistic, th-they'll force you to sign the treaty!"
"I will sign no treaty, Senator. My fate will be no different than that of our people."
"I fear by the time you have control of the bureaucrats, Senator - there'll be nothing left of our people, our way of life."once again casts doubts on what is being referred to, or which script version continuity is currently on display - especially if compared to this:
"The Trade Federation has destroyed all that we have worked so hard to build - if we do not act quickly, all will be lost forever."What have they "worked hard to build"? And what "way of life"?
"What is the situation?""Almost everyone's in camps", but that's all he says.
Panaka: "Almost everyone's in camps.
A few hundred police and guards formed an underground resistance movement. I brought back as many of the leaders as I could.
The Federation army's also much larger than we thought - and much stronger. Your Highness, this is a battle I do not think that we can win."
"What if it is true - and the people are dying?"It's never confirmed, nor refuted, nor ruled out - just no longer mentioned.
Obi-Wan: "Do you think they have been taken to the camps?"However that was of course instantly resolved.
Panaka: "More likely they were wiped out."
"Mesa no tink so."
Qui-Gon: "Do you know where they are, Jar Jar?"
Tension, stakes, a ticking clock!; heroism, and adventure - it's what makes Star Wars great.However while it's possible to view this all as a fragmented combination of several mutually continuities, it also remains true that Gunray had expressed a violent threat, the protagonists were shortly after given the impression that he may very well have started putting it into practice, this was then "all but confirmed" by the cut to Sio Bibble on Naboo (though only to the viewers, not the protagonists), and then none of this was ever explicitly contradicted, or ruled out - even not by all the lines that, in isolation, would make a very different impression.
Much like the Phantom Menace - when the Gungans fight the Robots to help Queen Amidala find the Viceroy, so that she doesn't have to sign a treaty to make the non-violent invasion legal in the courts...
"The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us; I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the old Republic have been swept away."Never mind the
"That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?"
"The regional governors now have direct control over their territories.Fear will keep the local systems in line - fear of this battle station."
"And what of the Rebellion? If the Rebels have obtained a complete technical readout of this station, it is possible, however unlikely, that they might find a weakness and exploit it."
"The plans you refer to will soon be back in our hands."
"Any attack made by the rebels against this station"
This scene is pretty important to the plot, but it's really just there to engage an element they call the "ticking clock" - it's a basic function used to create tension in a story. They almost have the Death Star ready; it's ready to shoot giant lasers, and they plan to use it to crush the Rebellion - by destroying their hidden base.; the plot of this movie is about governors non-violently controlling their local territories while non-violent rebels want to exploit the technical readouts of a station.
So the Queen waits around for some kind of approval, o-.. for something, to stop her people from dying- Why are they dying? I guess they're dying though...While obviously some "citizens" are eventually shown in the celebration at the end, the closest the movie ever gets to "showing anyone die", or confirming that it's taking place, is by showing Nute Gunray bringing it up to Sio Bibble who's acting like he accepts it as true (with the possibility that he's seen it not ruled out, but not confirmed either), and otherwise by having Padme believe his hologram transmission after that palace scene (although before that, the very same message was explicitly doubted).
But I didn't see anyone die?
In fact I haven't even seen any Naboo citizen at all - as far as I know it's a city with 20 or so pilots, a couple of bureaucrats and officials.
Why are they dying? I guess they're dying though...It looks like Plinkett is remembering the Padme lines, but not why she believes it's taking place, or what the cause of it is supposed to be in the first place;
I guess they're dying though...This seems like a casual acceptance of her claims - which coincides both with Padme's (unjustified, by rational metrics) acceptance of Sio's "death tolls" claim in the message, and the film's largely overwhelming (but not full) confirmation that it it was in fact true,
But the conflict from the blockade and the subsequent invasion:
Number 11: Please, God - make it stop. Make it end.Both when discussing the invasion as well as the preceding blockade, Plinkett consistently doesn't bother with going through the available information (while already not remembering it properly to begin with, naturally) - however for some reason the two instances are given the polar opposite treatment:
I mean I know George wanted the Jedis to fight in a cool place that's really Star Warsy? - so.. so what this is like a power generator? What does it power, the Universe??
So you're expecting me to believe that the people that built this technological wonder were dying without space supplies for 2 days??
Number 3: Death and Space Taxes
So the Trade Federation have set up a blockade around... Naboo, in order to stop them from getting space supplies - which instantly causes some kinda... crisis? - that we never see.
[...]
Anyways, so I realize that Senator Palpatine was using the Trade Federation to create a crisis to advance himself politically; like that was the plot I think? But the conflict from the blockade and the subsequent invasion is the entire movie! Understanding what role the Trade Federation played in this, is important...
You know what the blockade was about, who was getting taxed, what kinda supplies were so crucial to the Naboo - what was it, like medical supplies? Just some kinda plague? Did they not have the capacity to survive on such a lush planet with a huge power reactor for one day without space trade?
You see I would've accepted the idea of some kinda mystery villain if the basics were at least clear...
"Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo."Deadly battleships" implies potential danger, and "alarming" just means that everyone is "alarmed" by this (easily explainable by it being perceived as a "bold move", or something people hadn't been sure was legal to begin with - judging by Gunray's emphatic insistence that it is "perfectly legal", and Sidious' ability to "make things legal" that weren't so before) - no resulting high-stakes crisis is implied by this at all; let alone one emerging after just a few days.
While the Congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events,"
So the Trade Federation have set up a blockade around... Naboo, in order to stop them from getting space supplies - which instantly causes some kinda... crisis? - that we never see.The bolded part is invented; "we never see it", nor does anyone imply it's taking place at all, or behave as if it does.
"Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic. The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute."The "trade/taxation dispute" has long escalated into the blockade before the movie even begins - which then escalates into the invasion a few minutes into said movie; the threats against the population start shortly after, eventually followed by the Governor's distress message.
"Supreme Chancellor, delegates of the Senate - a tragedy has occurred, which started right here with the taxation of trade routes, and has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppression of the Trade Federation."
Plinkett audio commentary: SW Ep1All in all, on a general dementia--accuracy spectrum, Plinkett's commentary on this aspect of the plot keeps oscillating between these cases of sincere amnesia on the one side, and this bit on the other side:
And he has one last chance, and he puts that part in the pod - and finally, the pod starts working, and he can enter the big race - you know, to win the big prize at the end which will save.. the whole.. family.
And then he says "it's woorrrkiiing.." and you know, then you swell the dramatic music... - and that's when that scene works?
That scene doesn't work.. 20 minutes into a movie that's not about podracing.
I'm sorry to get all bitchy on you, but-.. but-... d'you ever watch this movie and, and be like... why did that happen, or, or-.. "I don't feel anything inside".... you know, I'm- like "I'm dead inside"?
Well.. - I'm.. just trying to explain why you feel dead inside when you watch this movie, or you don't feel excited - even at the end when they have the, big.. celebration? You know, []- [...]
But even at the end when they have the big, like, festival - like-... you're just like.. "So?" So what, there's a midget there now with an eyepatch on, and-... some boring-ass bitch.. gives a frog a glowing ball. Wwhy the fuck do I care?
It's not like the end of the original Star Wars when Luke, Han, and.. Chewbacca, get medals from Princess Leia - it's like, those guys saved the fucking day; what did these guys do? Oh, they resolved a tax dispute...
Oh.. - that's a good question, are you here to free the slaves Qui-Gon? No, actually we're.. we're in the process of settling a tax dispute... ohhh.
Yeah I guess freeing slaves would've made a better movie...
it's good we went with something boring, we wouldn't want to excite the audience too much...
So the Queen waits around for some kind of approval, o-.. for something, to stop her people from dying- Why are they dying? I guess they're dying though...This is the closest he ever comes to being "accurate", and it's still very far.
But I didn't see anyone die?
In fact I haven't even seen any Naboo citizen at all - as far as I know it's a city with 20 or so pilots, a couple of bureaucrats and officials.
Number 8: I'm gonna slit my wristsPlinkett audio commentary: Ep4
[Sigh...] It's hard to stomach any more of this shit - I still don't know who the main character is and why we should care about any of this.
At around this point in the original Star Wars movie, we've been with Luke almost the whole time getting to know him.
We see his plight;
his hopes and dreams...
we feel his frustration...
and then his sadness...
The slow build-up added depth, and emotion; and anticipation for the story to expand.
In the Phantom Menace we have nothing - we've a monotone queen, who's hiding from signing a treaty that's supposed to do something.
Why in fuck's name should we care at all.. I don't care about any of these characters?
Plinkett audio commentary: Ep1
But even at the end when they have the big, like, festival - like-... you're just like.. "So?" So what, there's a midget there now with an eyepatch on, and-... some boring-ass bitch.. gives a frog a glowing ball. Wwhy the fuck do I care?
It's not like the end of the original Star Wars when Luke, Han, and.. Chewbacca, get medals from Princess Leia - it's like, those guys saved the fucking day; what did these guys do? Oh, they resolved a tax dispute...
But the real thrust of this scene is, this is when the stakes are really raised - insteada just a giant floating ball in space, we are now shown that the Death Star is capable of blowing up whole planets; and our ragtag group o' heroes are the only ones that can stop it...Since all the segments with the direct Ep4 comparisons happen to be the amnesia ones, this causes the Ep1-Ep4 stakes comparisons to completely fall apart - as opposed to partially/overwhelmingly fall apart, if the less amnesia segments had been used instead.
Tension, stakes, a ticking clock!; heroism, and adventure - it's what makes Star Wars great.
Much like the Phantom Menace - when the Gungans fight the Robots to help Queen Amidala find the Viceroy, so that she doesn't have to sign a treaty to make the non-violent invasion legal in the courts...
[crickets...] Uhmm.. [..........]
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